YOU KNOW WHAT ERKS ME

Friday, January 12, 2007

Your Perceptions

So I was on one of Jay's threads and it had prompted me to ask the question:

What are your perceptions about the United States? So many times I watch our President on TV spitting off at the mouth about whatever and listening to the decisions he has made for our country and I wonder, what does the news say in other countries? What are Canadians, English, Japanese, Italians, Mexicans, Spaniards, thinking about our country right now?

We are one of the biggest world powers and I wonder if it will stay that way. You hear so many Americans say they went to France and were treated like poo and the French snickered about them while visiting thier country. Apparently the decisions our leaders make for us, define what the world thinks about us.

Even if you are in the US, I would like to hear your thoughts.

98 comments:

Nicole said...

I can honestly say Ellie, that I don't agree with alot of your countries foreign policies.

Being a more Liberal thinking person myself, you as well know my stance on SSM, and the treatment of minorities.

However, I feel that as a country, you should not judge it's people by their leaders. I certainly would not want to be judged by my countries' current leader!! :)
When I have travelled to places in your country, I have encountered many many nice, kind , helpful people.

Once in Seattle, a woman approached us as we were lost and it was 11:00pm and we were sitting in a gas station parking lot. She came up to our care= and told us to get the hell out of that neighbourhood and told us were to go and find decent hotels, etc.
On another trip we took down into South Dakota to go see Deadwood and all the attractions, all of the people were wonderful and hospitable.
So, if I had to judge your country on the people I have personally encountered alone, I have nothing but kind, positive remarks.

I am thrilled to have "met" you and I enjoy our friendship very much!

Ellie said...

That is refreshing to hear Nic.

Jay said...

Hey Ellie,
I think Canadians have an admiration for the the United States, especially its people but with regard to George Bush, I think the opinion on him in the US as of late is pretty much what Canadians felt since about 2 years after he became president.

I remember growing up with my accent which is different than most Newfoundlanders due to my grandma being a teacher and my mom correcting me all the time. People from my province who meet me first time assumed I was American because I didn't ssem to have a newfoundland or Canadian accent. I aenjoyed that because I admired the US. Also before Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949 the province seemed to have prefered the US over Canada but the option was never given to us.

We love Americans but don't like the bully tactics that republicans tend to force upon us. In general.

I do believe it will take some time to get the world to warm up to the US again, a lot of damage has been done.

Ellie said...

Jay I am a Republican...sniff sniff

Ellie said...

I think that I have a little bit of a reform heart though

Dogg said...

Hi Ellie,

I pretty much agree 100% with Jay and Nicole.

I don't agree with US policies towards SSM, healthcare, and this may be a hot topic...but I think their laws towards murder versus possession of marijuana is completely backwards.

But like Jay said...most Canadians love Americans. I'm a conservative and I just can't stand GWB. At first he was funny...making up words and all. But it's gotten tiresome.

Which reminds me...did anyone ever catch the Saturday Night Live with Will Farell playing GWB? It was him making his acceptance speech for his first time and he (Will Farell) said..."I promise to work 24/7...that's 24 hours a week....7 months a year". Man was that funny.

Ellie said...

Thanks for stopping by Dogg...I really appreciate it!

RWA said...

Well, I'm an American, but you said you wanted our thoughts too.

I like our country. I may not always agree with what our government does, but I respect the fact that it is the system we have and the leaders are elected by the people.

After 9/11, I fully supported the efforts to go after Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. I did not care if foreign countries thought we should wait or negotiate. That search and those efforts continue today (I have friends serving in Afghanistan now), and I hope it continues until they find that spineless coward.

I have no problem with getting Saddam Hussein out of power. He was personally responsible for the SLAUGHTER of tens of thousands of innocent human beings. That's why there are trials still going on now after his execution. Other countries helped at the beginning and then bailed out. That's their choice. I do not believe the United States should abandon the Iraqi people now - and it was NOT about oil at any point. The facts are that the Iraqi supply contributes very little the U.S. consumption.

I am for the death penalty. I have had a family member murdered, and I hate the fact that my father and my aunts and uncles have to go through the trouble of attending parole hearings every couple of years and re-living their personal nightmare.

In an ideal world, every country would get along and "We Are The World" would be more than just a bunch of singers raising money for charity.

But it's not. There are countries who hate us out of jealousy. There are countries who hate us for political disagreements. That's reality. There will never be a time when everyone loves America and Americans; the attitudes of the French have not developed just recently, either.

I should stop now. I have wasted entirely too much space on your blog.

Ellie said...

RWA you could never waste space here. I love all your comments and appreciate them.

I hope though, that my post is not mis-construed as anti american...I am proud to live here and be apart of our country. I support the Iraq war and flushing of Afganistan...I just disagree with the way many things have been done. I do not in many ways approve of Bush, but yes I voted for him and I don't think that I would change my decision.

As far as the death penalty, I am undecided. I lean more towards. I am so very sorry for your loss, and that is why I am conflicted with the death penalty, it has never been an immediate issue with me, but heaven forbid anyone ever hurt someone in my family ...I don't even want to think about it.

Thank you for your honest comments RWA

Nicole said...

Hey, I directed some "traffic" here.
I asked at my place if anyone wanted to comment about what you propsed about other countries' views of yours.

I knew you wouldn't mind and that they would be welcome here.
Cheers, Nic

jdave34 said...

My opinion of Americans is pretty much the same as my opinion of everyone else from everywhere else:

It's country full of mostly decent, kind, cool people. It's run by monkeys, but hey, so are most countries. It all comes down to individuals, in my book. One criticism I do have though, is that the average American could stand to learn a little bit more about the world outside their borders, but the average Canadian probably could stand to learn a little more too.

I just feel bad that Dubya's giving all Americans a bad name.

jdave34 said...

Ellie:

Can I ask why you support the Iraq war? You are aware that every reason provided for going in there has proven to be a lie, aren't you?

And if I may be so bold, what is it about George Bush that makes you think he deserves to be your president?

Ellie said...

JDave. There is no doubt in my mind that Sadaam had weapons. Where they went, I don't know. But my brother served 2 tours over there. They found chemically active underground vaults larger than a football field. I am sure that they weren't there for fun. Also, Sadaam Hussain killed tens of thousands of people as a part of genocide. I fully support GW wanting to rid the world of this man. However, I think that we went in too quick, the plan was not developed and GW blew the UN off like it meant nothing. I had a choice between Al Gore and George Bush..lesser of the two evils in my book. Plus I am a Republican. The second time around it was Kerry vs Bush. My opinion, I don't think that it is a good idea to change presidents in a time of war. My brother was over there and I had to make the decision that best fit him and my family circumstances. That is why I voted the way I did. Do I like Bush..no.. I think he is an ass. There are alot of people that voted for him that feel let down and are pissed at him, but given the chance to vote again, would vote the same way. A couple of months ago John Kerry made a remark that insinuated that if you didn't have an education then you were sent to Iraq. As if people who don't go to college can't find any other job than a military one. The way he reacted to the plublicity of his comments made me glad that I didn't vote for him. He became slimy. I didn't think of him that way before.

I hope that answers your questions...feel free to debate!

Hey and glad to see you back..Nic has missed you!

Nicole said...

I have to say it, sorry El, but I think GWB is one of your countries' worst presidents.
just my 2 cents.

but feel free to rub it in my face that Harper runs the show here in Canada. touchee as they say!! :)

Julene said...

I'm an Army brat. Like most Army brats, I am more patriotic than my peers. I have travelled the world some, but mostly with the Army. In my experience, we are loved everywhere there is a base supporting the local economy. They may say they hate us or that we are snobs, but when it comes right down to it they want to have our blue jeans.

After 911 I too was supportive of the war in Afghanistan. When the war turned towards Iraq, I was stunned to hear my dad say that we could not win that war in any way that would be satisfactory to the US people. He thought GB was a great president. He thinks GWB is a "lightweight" without a clue.

We have such a head start on most of the rest of the world that it would be hard to mess it up, but we're trying.

jdave34 said...

There is so much wrong with what you just typed, that I don't know where to begin. And seeing as how you voted for Bush a second time, fully aware of what a self-serving bastard he is, tells me that no amount of logic, reason, or factual evidence is going to change your mind.

I'm not going to bother debating you because I don't see much point. If 3000+ dead soldiers, 400 billion dollars wasted on a pointless war, and the invasion and destruction of a sovereign nation that posed absolutely zero threat to the US isn't enough to make you rethink things, nothing I say is going to either.

Just remember: When you're watching TV and you see the anti-American sentiment that seems so pervasive today, you played a very direct role in the growth of that sentiment.


I hope your brother stays safe and in one piece, but if he dies or is maimed in Iraq, don't ever forget that you supported the policies that placed him in Iraq, and some of his blood will be on your hands.

Ellie said...

The way GW reacted to 911 when it happened made the majority of americans felt the same way. Even Democrats said they supported him. In his second term...Nic you have it wrong...one of the worst...I think he tops the list.

Ellie said...

JDave said:
"I hope your brother stays safe and in one piece, but if he dies or is maimed in Iraq, don't ever forget that you supported the policies that placed him in Iraq, and some of his blood will be on your hands."

I have respected your opinion until now. That last bit was uncalled for.
I would never say something like that to someone...basically... just know you helped kill your brother. You are not here. You do not see what we see everyday, you do not hear the news in this country nor read the papers in this country. It isn't a cut and dry instance. If Kerry would have been elected then there would be alot more people killed. Just because they wouldn't be American doesn't mean their lives are any less valuable. I am all for peaceful debate.. but I think that your last comment was a little too far over my line.

Dogg said...

Ellie,

Thanks for having me. I had every intention of contributing more to this thread...but my plans for giving it to the "dogg" (so to speak) were completely derailed this morning. I gotta retire...this work thing really isn't for me.

Ellie said...

early retirement...something I can only dream of. I have been working since I was 14. I am tired now.

jdave34 said...

"I have respected your opinion until now. That last bit was uncalled for."

I'm sorry if the truth hurts. But you supported Bush, that support helped win him the presidency, and his position as president is what enabled him to put your brother in harm's way. It's a pretty straight line.


"I would never say something like that to someone...basically... just know you helped kill your brother."

Well maybe you need to be told that, as the thought doesn't seem to have ever occurred to you.


"You are not here. You do not see what we see everyday, you do not hear the news in this country nor read the papers in this country."

Yes I do. I read American newspapers and magazines. I watch American TV (local and national). Please don't try and tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, because I'm starting to think that I've put more thought into that damned war than you have. And considering that your brother is over there, that's just wrong.

"It isn't a cut and dry instance. If Kerry would have been elected then there would be alot more people killed."

Really? Why? I'm curious to read what makes you think that.

"Just because they wouldn't be American doesn't mean their lives are any less valuable."

Well that's awfully nice of you to say. I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands who died at the hands of dictators who were funded and supported by the US (including.....Saddam!!!) will be happy to hear that.

"I am all for peaceful debate.. but I think that your last comment was a little too far over my line."

Why? Is it because you don't like to think about how your support for Bush put your brother in harm's way? Is it because you feel a measure of guilt? That's a good thing. I think more Americans should force themselves to closely examine the consequences of their blind allegiance to a President whose actions have literally killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

I really don't care if you respect my opinion. To be honest, I have not one shred of respect for yours. I don't think you're a bad person, and I won't insult you. But you're wrong. Your beliefs are wrong, as are the statements you call facts.

Dogg said...

Well...I'm only 27...so really I'm just bitching. I figure...hey...it's Friday and "the man" is bringin me down....so I might as well bitch.

Ellie said...

fine then Fuck off.

done

Nicole said...

Ellie, I am worried about you.
I don't want your feelings hurt.

xoxoxox
Nic

Dogg said...

Sorry for kind of jumping in on this....but I too feel that your comments where a little too far, JDave.

This is democracy...and in my opinion, people can vote for whomever they like and they don't have to rationalize or explain their reasoning to anyone.

Ellie's brother, just by serving his country in a time of need (no matter what the case might be) is a hero, his family are also heros. I hope I never have to experience the heart ache and pain that goes along with having a loved one being put in harm's way.

People can debate the reasonings of war till the cows come home...but nothing will negate the fact that these people (the soilders and their families) are true hero's who, without a second thought, put their lives on the line to protect that which many people take for granted each and everyday. Freedom is not free and we as citizens must never forget the men and women who protect our security and our way of life.

jdave34 said...

Oh yes...there's the reasonable debate you were after, huh?

Just remember: I never cursed you or called you any name. You asked for opinions, I gave mine. Forcefully, honestly and respectfully. You told me to fuck off.

Just remember what I said. I hope it makes you think.

Dogg said...

Hey Ellie,

Please do me a favour and try to disregard every single word coming from JDave's computer. Some people can't see that words hurt.

An hour ago I wanted to tell my waitress to get her head out of her ass....but I didn't because that would have probably hurt her feelings. So I just smiled and bitched about it later to my buddies.

Ellie said...

Jdave.. I think your comments warranted my response. My end of the debate was peaceful and respectful until you crossed boundries. I too..never called you a name...but I feel justified in telling you to F off. Just a note, it is the first time I have unwelcomed anyone or cursed anyone off. I guess you just have that charming effect on people.

jdave34 said...

The truth brings out the best in all of us, I suppose. Ellie, I suspect you're dealing with tremendous feelings of guilt and shame for supporting Bush, and that's what led to your response to me. I don't blame you one bit for feeling that guilt and shame. I would too.

And dogg: You're right. The heroes are the soldiers. I've never argued that fact, nor will I.

e.Craig said...

Your question here, Ellie, invites some heated opinions, and insensitive or hurtful comments are often part of it.

My nephew just returned from Iraq after more than a year as a combat medic, even spending some time working in military prisons. The insurgents are animals; he could tell you some stories.

Unfortunately, by the time the liberal media and partisan politicians have put their spin on the "news" the world receives a skewed view of exactly what is happening over there.

On the other hand, I have my misgivings about bringing democracy to a country that is so culturally different from us. But, I firmly believe that it is good that an evil tyrant no longer leads Iraq.

It has been the goal of radical Islam to rule the world for centuries. And, if we look back at history, we find that they have had some remarkable short term successes.

Terrorist attacks and the killing of innocent civilians occured long before 9/11. For the first time an American president correctly described the 9/11 attack as an act of war.

Thousands of our best and brightest young people are putting their lives on the line every day in an effort to keep the free world free. And, I'm for any military strategy that will help them to accomplish that goal.

Rhianna said...

I'll take European/Asian whines about US military power and costs as something worth hearing when they foot the bills for their own defense. You know, like they haven't for the last 60+ years. Don't for a second buy the BBC line that the rest of the world gets nothing out of the US building the bases, the buildings, the schools, and paying rent to the government hosts and to the locals for housing needs. Germany whined we needed to leave so the US Army has started closing up shop. Now they're whining they can't survive without the money the troops and their families bring in. You don't get to bite the hand that feeds you and then expect to get petted and fed a treat for it.

Also, as I refrain from commenting on the foreign and domestic policies of my host nations, I would greatly appreciate Europeans stopping their "LISTEN TO US, WE KNOW BETTER". If you knew better, you'd have proven it over the last 1000 years Europe had the power. What we're doing is working at the moment, so until someone comes up with something better, you can keep your fascists, your communists, your nazis, your "don't hurt anyone's feelings *unless they're white, or christian*" multiculturalism, you plumeting birth rates, your lack of work and crumbling infastructures.

Bush was re-elected by the American people. You don't have to like your elected officals, but they're still your elected officals. They still serve you - and so far those who dislike Bush are in the minority. Soon enough the Democrats will be the ones to blame again - I hope they're ready and remember all the tantrums they've thrown for the last 6 years. (I say this as a Bush and Clinton voter both.)

The fact you have a commenter taking glee in the death of US troops, at that's what it is - sheer unadulterated glee at dead US troops so they can blame Bush, is a sad little fact. These are the kind of people that want to run the US. Doesn't bode well for staying the course in the Stans, Horn of Africa or Iraq. It does however bode well for the likes of Saddam, the Mullahs, the Iatollahs and the Taliban and Al Quida. Blaming the troops for terrorists wanting to kill them, their families, their friends and their allies is blaming those that resist the raping and stoning of "adulterous" women, those who resist beating schoolgirls back into burning building, those who resist the use of child soldiers and blowing up women and children in market places (or over New York City, DC and Pennsylvania). It's only a very small step from "it's the troop's fault for being in harm's way" to "it's the victim's fault for being raped, murdered, burned, tortured or terrorised". The fact any American can even think that way is disgusting and shocking. But, I guess it's easier to blame those that defend you from the enemy than to defend your protectors. Never doubt if they win they'll kill you ALL - no matter if you called them a TERRORIST, a "freedom fighter" an "insurgent" or a "holy warrior". It's their way or death - so give them death as I won't give them their way.

As for Europeans disliking us - they're failures. Their economies are stagnant, their buerocracy is to the point they can't sustain it but they can't get rid of it, they can't defend themselves and they aren't producing more citizens. They see they've failed and would rather blame those that are succeding rather than facing the cold hard facts. IF you want to see ugly nasty little people, I'll make a special trip to Aquileia just for you this summer. If you think Americans are bad, let me show you first hand how French, Germans and Brits treat Italians - specifically Italian and Roman heritage in Catholic churches. You'd be appaled.

Lord Omar said...

Can you bloody believe Shawn Marion makes more coin than Steve Nash?

;-)

Anonymous said...

you are such a liar.

Hypersonic said...

OK, So a lot of my friends are Yanks and this is from before the internet as well so it goes back a long time. I love a lot of things about America, but fuck me your current encumbent president is a loosely wired A-Hole. The Imperialistic tendencies to go barging into places where you're either not wanted or not needed ( both on an economical front as well as a physical one) and the gall to believe that you can heal the worlds ills in accordance with your vision...well, I ask you.

when I say "you" I don't mean you personally ellie, as I would never say that to any of my North American friends, you asked my opinion of your country and you got it. I could alo say the same thing about my former homeland of the UK.

Positives: Great people, excellent movie industry, the blues, bluegrass, rock, jazz and oh so many musical forms. excellent writers and some really kick ass food and drink.

I could go on with that list too. But this post is also pretty long.

RWA said...

Every reason for the Iraq War is not a lie. Saddam Hussein was a dictator who SLAUGHTERED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

The people had no means to organize and overthrow this evil man. They needed help. It was provided.

I support that 100 percent.

And, ellie, don't worry about Jdave. All of the anti-war, anti-Bush crowd has to resort to namecalling and personal attacks when they can no longer discuss facts.

Jay said...

Ellie,
supporting a party based on what you are told and then having to suffer because of actually what they did is a symptom of believing a politician.

It happens to everyone. Every party seems to have good intentions but what they do with the power people give them is a totally different keetle of fish.

You vote for what you believe is right at the time.

Ellie said...

Thank you all for your comments. Something you should know about my blogging habits. I normally take Saturday off...so it will take a bit for your comments to show.

I normally appreciate all to contribute freely without feeling attacked for their opinions, however one blogger this time crossed my line. And no Jdave, it wasn't b/c I felt guilty for our soldiers deaths that I responded that way. Soldiers sign up for the military of their own free will and know the risks they are taking. Sometimes all we have is blind faith in our leaders b/c we want to be assured that no matter their political side, they will take care of our country and the saftey of our military. If there was a Democrat in power, I would support my leader as long as the best interests of our people and the rights of the world were being protected. Saddam would of reached us sooner or later. He killed tens of thousands of his own people for no reason other than race and religon. A smaller version of Hitler if you need a comparison. If America had the power to stop innocents from dying, then America should. Bush has made serious mistakes, and I do not give my full approval to Bush, I have given my reasons and don't feel I need to justify myself anymore.
I don't think that using the death of our soldiers to get at me was appropriate, respectful nor part of a rational and peaceful debate. Your words were used to intentionally hurt me. I do not delete comments and I do not reject comments, but I politly ask you not to visit here anymore.

Rhianna, thank you for your well thought out contribution to this post. RWA... I fully agree with you! Hypersonic, I totally understand what you are saying. Nic...no worries here sweetie!Ecraig you said it better than I. Anon..go away. Jay I understand what you are saying and I shake my head saying, yes yes yes. Omar...What???? he he

Hypersonic said...

where in Sam Hill does it say that Saddam killed tens of thousands! If he had done that he would have depopulated his country in no time. He was no different from many other leaders around the world ( including the U.S.A.) whose policies cause the deaths and harm of innocents. His biggest mistake was making G.B Sr. look a fool. Junior wanted to get his Daddy's honour back. An honour that G.B. Sr. wasn't too worried about in the first place because of the countless deals he has done with people like Saddam over the years. Oil, and honour those are the reasons The U.S. and the U.K. stormed into a relatively calm country with a stable economy, no taxes, ample state education and health for all. Do they still have this in Iraq?

The problem is that in the U.S. you receive your information through a filter, heavily biased and easy to consume. That's why the dickwad was elected again ( and some judicious vote rigging in key states as well.)

Ellie said...

Saddams Crimes...



The following is a small list of Saddam Hussein's List of crimes including:
Genocide, torture, murder, rape, mutilation, false imprisonment, use of
Weapons of Mass Destruction, and other crimes against humanity.

Upon assuming power, had political opponents assassinated including
high level government officials. Continued to kill any prominent
opposition leaders who might threaten his power.

Had approximately 40 members of his family murdered including two
son-in-laws and 3 young grandchildren

Used chemical weapons against Iranians during 1980-1988 Iraq Iran War, a war that left over
600,000 dead, 75% of casualties Iranian.

In March of 1988 used chemical weapons of mustard gas and nerve agent to slaughter over 5,000
Kurds in Halabja within minutes, and a total of over 12,000 in a 3 day period. A two year
campaign against the Kurds from 87-88 killed approximately 75,000.

In a 7 month period beginning February 1988, over 100,000 Kurdish Men and boys were
rounded up and executed. By this point, over 4,500 Kurdish villages had been destroyed and
Chemical weapons used in no less than 40 cases.

Allowed the starvation of approximately 400,000 children in the several years before his removal
in refusal to execute oil-for-food program.

Throughout the 80's and 90's held summary executions and prison cleansing campaigns, executing
thousands at a time, including many political prisoners.

In Gulf War 1991, regime used human shields and placed military sites beneath schools,
orphanages, and mosques to force collateral damage and the death of innocents.

Has opened machine gun fire on Iraqi Civilians fleeing from villages and indiscriminately killed no
less than 40,000 Shi'a following a revolt after the Gulf War

Used torture techniques including the eye-gouging, drilling holes in hands and pouring acid on open
wound, raping women with broken glass bottles, tying victims up and slowly lowering them into
pools of acid, cutting off of ears and tongues, ripping out of finger and toenails, and electric shock
to the body and genitals.

Over 250 mass graves have been uncovered with over 400,000 execution-style and
torture-ridden corpses found packed tightly in burial sites going on for hundreds of meters.
Hundreds of torture sites also uncovered.

In Baghdad alone, an estimated 61,000 civilians were murdered between 1979 and 2003.

Forced young children to fight for regime by threatening the execution of family members

And that doesn't include the enviromental crimes.

I think that yes I mispoke...hundreds of thousands would have been correct.

Ellie said...

If you go to history.com you can see a small tid bit about what he was prosecuted for.

Here are a few links that might help you

http://history1900s.about.com/od/saddamhussein/a/husseincrimes.htm

http://www.sciri.btinternet.co.uk/English/Saddam_Crimes/saddam_crimes.html

http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

just a few...and note the 2nd one is English...not American.

Nicole said...

Rhianna said The fact you have a commenter taking glee in the death of US troops, at that's what it is - sheer unadulterated glee at dead US troops so they can blame Bush, is a sad little fact.


I have gone thru each comment and I don't think anyone was taking any glee over dead US troops. I believe she was referring to JDave. Now, I no as FACT that JDave would never take any glee over a soldier dying. When one is opposed to a war, you do not take glee over soldiers needlessly dying. You do not want the soldiers there to begin with. Esp. when you feel that it is an illegal war.

If I have missed something and Rhianna was meaning a different poster, I apologize.

Ellie said...

Nic I think she was more referring to the fact that he used it as a tactic to get at me. He said not once but I believe 3 times to purposely make me upset...that is the only reason I think someone would do that...is a sadistic twisted kinda way.

Nicole said...

I think he was trying to get his point across that he feels that by voting for Bush, you then support the war that many, many people and countries oppose. I think he shares many of the views as Hypersonic, but unfortunately, choose to make it personal to get his point across. I am also against the war in Iraq and I agree with many things that Hypersonic said too. I just choose to be wayyyyy more diplomatic and even when I don't agree with different views on blogs, I don't like to attack personally.
You have seen what happens when people do that over at my blog and I have no use for it.

I am not making excuses for JDave, and I feel that in his attempt to make you think, he crossed the line by making it personal to you, but I know for fact that he would never rejoice over a soldier's death. That's like saying that Bush supporters would rejoice over Iraqi civilian deaths.

If Bush could run a third term, would you vote him in again?

Politics sure are a "funny" thing, hey??!!
For me, I could not support a PM or political party that does not support SSM. I feel that until we have a system that includes all citizens, we will not have a society of equality.

Ellie said...

I understand what you are saying Nic. Would I vote if he could run a 3rd term? Well he can't and that is a good thing. But it would depend on what Democrat was running against him. If Hilary Clinton was running...maybe I would vote for her. My only concern with a Clinton is, the 1st Clinton neglected the military. That is why Gore lost so much of the Military vote when he ran against Bush. My ideal canidate would be Colon Powell, but he will never run. 2nd would be Giuliani, his response to the 911 attacks was heroic.
I fear for a Republican canidate going into the next election. He will have to answer for the mistakes of Bush. But will have to do so in a way not to discredit Bush so he doesn't lose the republican vote. Many Republicans in this country I think, are on the fence. With the younger generation starting to vote, you will see less to the far right or far left but somewhere in the middle. I do not declare myself and die hard Republican. If a Democrat will run things the way that I feel benefits me and my family, I will vote for them. My brother is home now. But he is still on call for the next 4 years. So that will play a huge role in my voting. I am not oblivious to the fact that this is what my brother chose to do with his life. He even said he knew what he was dealing with. He signed up during the talks of war with Iraq, NOT before. He is alot braver than I will ever be.
I remember one night, before they invaded Bagdad, I was home all alone watching the teli. A leader from Saddams regime was on the news warning troops of a chemical attack if they were to invade. I knew my brother was there. I felt helpless. I screamed and tore the room into shambles. I was cursing Bush, the Iraqis, and everyone else in the world. But when Jon came home he said how awful Saddam was. I felt like maybe it was the right thing. He said there were pictures of him everywhere even in the schools. Like the children had to be brain washed into loving him.
I honestly don't know how I will vote the next time. No one has stepped up to say that they are running yet.

Ellie said...

I know John S. McCain is running, but he seriously opposes gay rights issues. I have another brother that is gay...so that will be another deciding factor for me. He is also a back and forther...can't decide on jack!

Nicole said...

lol!!

I think it is time that your country had a WOMAN prez!!!

I know I would like to see a woman running the show up here!!! :)

Hypersonic said...

I stand corrected, to a certain degree. Still doesn't answer my question about why the US and the UK invaded Iraq without UN sanction.

Ellie said...

Hypersonic, as I stated in my earlier comments...that is a major issue I have with Bush. I fully support the United Nations. It was created for a purpose and Bush ignored that purpose as if he were above it.

Nic...I don't know if I would call Hillary a woman... she is special.

Aeneas the Younger said...

Ellie:

Canadian and Europeans have generally no problem with American individuals. We have problems with the "collective" American however.

Telling everyone you are #1 all the time (and we suck) is no way to make friends.

Canadian Historic Anitpathy:

Well, Canada was founded by those Loyalists (Tories to you ...) who were kicked-out of the Thirteen Colonies, and who had all their property stolen by the republican mob between 1775 and 1796. These Loyalists wanted to live in a country where they could be loyal to their lawful King, and once that became impossible in the "13," came to the Canadas to live under tht protection of His Majesty King George III, and to live freely under his laws. So Canada was founded by people who did not like your republican system and society.

We also abolished slavery sixty years before you did, and your escaped and freed slaves tended to come to Canada so that they could live in "freedom" under the British Crown. So much for the "Land of the Free" eh?

In the ensuing years, the USA tried to invade Canada numerous times: 1812, 1866, 1870, and 1871. Why can't we resent that?

America also used every diplomatic and un-diplomatic trick in the book to take our territory and pulnder our resources. Many, many examples abound.

As someone with a lot of Family Members (4 dead and buried in Europe) who served King, Country, and Empire in the First and Second World Wars I will only say this:

World War One began in 1914, with Canada at war with Germany from the beginning. The USA did not come in until 1917. Three Years difference.

World War Two began in 1939, with Canada at war with the Nazis from the beginning. The USA did not come in until late 1941. Three Years' difference - again.

In both wars, we suffered greater per capita killed and wounded than the USA. We were alone with the British Commonwealth fighting German Militarism and the NAZIs. Where were you? Why did it take so long?

My Family sure resented you for this. I still do.

As well, your Treasury Deparment deliberately bankrupted (through War Loans) the British Imperial Economy in order to put your nation in the economic forefront. Yet, you forgave German and Japanese crimes and financial respnsonsibilities. In fact, you spent your own money to build them back up. But ... Britain had to pay it back. Every last cent.

Yeah, we resent that.

Your politicians have made no secret of their desire to access our Natural Resources for your own uses. When you could not get them militarily, you did all you could to buy our companies and ensure contnued supplies of Oil, Gas and Minerals. You are keen on getting to our large freshwater reserves.

Global Anitpathy:

Since the time of Theodore Roosevelt, your government has propped-up some of the worst dicatators and murderers in the world.

Batista (Cuba)
Somoza (Nicaragua)
Shah of Iran (Iran)
Hussein (Iraq) did you know that?
Pinochet (Chile)
Fuentes (Guatemala)

... and so many more !

On top of this, your government is very selective as to who they decide is a "tyrant."

You claim the right to remove Hussein (your puppet) in Iraq, but do nothing about Kim il Sung in North Korea - even though you have 50,000 troops in South Korea. Kim is even more evil than Hussein was, but you didn't actively support his regime (as you do Hussein's in Iraq) did you?

You fought in Vietnam and then once it became too hard, abandoned the South to the Communists. Nice ethics there. Ever hear of the "Killing Fields" in Cambodia? Your abandonment of the SE Asians allowed that to happen.

Your government actively trained and supported the notorious "Death Squads" in El Salvador, and yet you claim to be a champion of human rights.

Your people are the largst consumer of illicit drugs in the world, and yet rather than take on policies to combat addiction, you bomb Columbian peasants for the crime of trying to raise a cash crop - that you guys consume in record numbers!

You claim we have weak border and drug policies because some smugglers sneak Pot into the USA, without any recongition that it is your people who want the dope!

Your politicians made wildly false claims the the 9/11 Hijackers entered the USA from Canada, and when it was proven to be false (they scammed your own officials and came direcly into the US from their home countries) no apology was made.

When we told you that Iraq was a mistake, and that there were no WMDs, you said we had no clue because we are such a pissant unimportant country, and then your Prez cancelled an invitation that we had made, and he accepted (to address our Parliament) as a gesture of disrespect. When the fact that Iraq had no WMDs came to light, you made no apologies, you just went on about how they "disappeared" (they were destroyed in 1991-92 in GWI by-the-way) and showed no remorse. This showed that you folks are divorced from reality.

Ellie, there are thousands of more examples I could give you, but this conservative Canadian has no love for the United States at all.

One last point though, you guys do not have a free-press. You label all other news sources such as the BBC and the CBC as socialist, when in fact, all they are doing is reporting that which the US Media dare not report. Because your new organisations are Big Corporations, they do not report on issues that will offend their shareholders or adverstisers. That is why you never get to see the "real news."

I cherish my friendship with individual Americans however, and that is a much different thing than disliking the Fascist States of America.

I am always surprised and appalled at how uninformed Americans actually are ...

JDave's comments were over the line, but don't you see his logic?

Voting for a corrupt and obviously stupid President because you don't think it makes sense to change leaders in time of war is nonsensical. THAT IS EXACTLY WHEN YOU SHOULD HAVE CHANGED PRESIDENTS ...

You are now looking at a 50 year occupation of Iraq and 50 years' worth of the costs of rebuilding that sad Country, with no Allied help (as you have alienated your Allies). Good Luck with that ...

However, I predict, much like in Vietnam, that the US will pull-out when it gets tougher to continue to falsly jusitify that war, and then Iraq will be plunged into violence and chaos - but it won't matter, because you will be long gone. Much like in Vietnam and Cambodia.

Also, did you know that the reason you guys went to war (The Gulf of Tonkin Incident) in Vietnam NEVER HAPPENED? The US National Security Agency said so in 2005 ...

Smells the same to me!

Dogg said...

Ellie,

As Nicole said....I think a woman president would be a good thing. But as you mention, Hillary is special so I don't think that will happen this next election.

Which brings me to my next question....what are the chances that Barak Obama (forgive the spelling) will be president in 2008? Whenever I turn on CNN, he's everywhere. Plus, his name rhymes with Iraq and Osama....which will give all the fanatics and conspiracy theorists something to talk about....relentlessly I'm sure.

Ellie said...

North Korea is one of the many issues I have with Bush. I don't see how they were allowed to fly a nuclear missle over Japan and get away with it. One of their missles could reach our California coast and all we issue is a cease and desist order...wa wa wa wa wa blah blah.. I live very much in fear of North Korea.
As far as slavery is concerned. I agree with you there as well. But what Clinton did apologizing for me when it came to slavery annoyed me a little. It was our ancestors that contributed to slavery yes. I am part american indian and have much of my heritage missing from my life. I can honestly say that my family has never owned slaves while in the United States. I do not know the history behind much of the Bonaparte's. I have often thought of researching this part of my heritage, but I prefer to try to salvage the lost.
As far as Canada is concerned. I am envious of many aspects of Canada. You are years ahead of us politically when it comes to human rights. Having a brother that is gay, I wish the United States was ahead.
There is no doubt that the United States wants to be #1, most countries do. I can't justify the actions of all our leaders. But I am proud to be here, just as you are a proud Canadian.
I understand all your points and thank you for your comments.

Ellie said...

oh..and as far as the news...I don't trust the news..you have your democratic stations and your republican stations. Casters report the facts as they appear to them. So it is hard to have unbiased reporting.

as far as Barak Obama Dogg, I don't think it will happen. I don't think that a black presidential cantidate will win the next election. It's hard enough for me to beleive that a woman will win next. I think that the Democrats, now that they have the majority of the house and senate, they will play it safe. If a Democrat wins, then maybe the next presidential run. He is still young so it wouldn't be far fetched. I don't have much to say about him b/c I don't know much about him. But I will certainly look into it, if you say I should.

Our country, unfortunatley, isn't that open yet. As I said before, my first choice is Colon Powell, but it will never happen. He promised he wouldn't put his family through an election campain. I think it is a shame...he is a wonderful man.

Aeneas the Younger said...

Elllie:

You are a fair lady, but I would point out that none of us wants our Country to be #1 in the world.

We merely want peace, justice, fairness and respect between all countries across the Globe.

If war has to come, let it be a last resort - after all other methods of remediation have been attempted. This was not done in Iraq. (I am for the War in Afghanistan btw ...)

Are you truly proud of what the US Government has done in your name in Iraq? I fully understand that you love your Brother and Sericemen (as you should ...), but I would remind you that the German people loved their Nazi soldiers as people as well. Did that make what they did right?

It should never be a matter of "my country, right or wrong"; but a matter of "my country when it is right, and me - for justice - when it is wrong."

That is how a real democracy behaves.

GW Bush has done more damage to the USA then all your potential enemies could have done, combined. He has alienated his friends in Great Britain, Canada and across the Globe.

That is serious.

Do not underestimate what has happened since 2003.

Aeneas the Younger said...

I agree with you on Powell.

You know why he didn't stay on as Scretary of State don't you?

He came to see that he was used by Bush to lie to the UN about Iraq's WMDs. This is a fact.

He gained my respect in refusing to serve under Bush after 2004. he showed the world that he - at least - has a conscience.

Ellie said...

Yes, I do understand his reasons for leaving.

Dogg said...

Ellie,

Personally...I would like to see Steven Colbert make a run for the White House...just kidding.

His character is so extreme...it's hilarious. I really don't have any personal favorites for president because I'm a Canadian...but what about Rudy? He sure was the saviour of New York during 9-11....is his popularity still sky high?

Oh and on a different note, I watched the episode of Cross Fire on the weekend at You Tube with Jon Stewart ripping a strip off of Tucker Carlson...what a punk ass that guy is. Nice bowtie buddy.

And has anyone ever seen that Ann Coulter chick talk about her views on Canada? What a close minded putz.

Boy...I'm bitter this morning.

Ellie said...

I must point out also that Colon Powell's original intent was to only serve one term. And in his fairwell he said...quoted:
"I will always treasure the four years I spent working with President Bush and the wonderful men and women of the department. I think we accomplished a great deal."

AY I believe that it is the politicians that want to be #1..but the people that wish for peace. If I could have peace over anything else..I would.

Dogg..Rudy will not win an election. I don't think he will run either. His past infidelities and marital situations make him a big target. I am not sure if he is up for that.

As far as Ann Coulter, she is widely hated through out the united states. I have see her on the covers of magz with nothing nice to say about her.

Dogg said...

Forgive me my Liberal friends...but I received a joke this morning that I just had to share.

Subject: Fw: Party choice...........

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
others her age, she considered herself to be a good NDP-er, and was very much in favor of the redistribution of wealth. She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Conservative, a
feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had
participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the addition of more government welfare programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth
and she indicated so to her father.

He responded by asking her how she was doing in school. Taken aback, she

answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party
like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?" She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA . She is so popular on campus,
college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung
over."

Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your 4.0 GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that
would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA."

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That wouldn't be fair! I have worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, "Welcome to the
Conservative Party".

Ellie said...

But yes Rudy's popularity is still high. My hubby is an artist though and dislikes the fact that Rudy often dicriminates against the arts.

Ellie said...

Goodness...I have butchered his name. Colin Powell. Sorry.

Nicole said...

alright Dogg...now you are on notice too!! :)

ps..do you know I laugh when I type Dogg...what made you pick Dogg...sometimes I imagine you as a cross between Dog the Bounty Hunter and KFed...( only because of the name...it's just what I think of when I hear it!!! lol)

Dogg said...

Nicole,

I thought you might like that joke....lol

Here's the story about Dogg. My last name is Hurt and as long as I can remember...my nickname has been Hurtdogg. And I'm kind of thinking you're a mind reader because I love Dog the Bounty Hunter...that's why I shortened it to Dogg.

Speaking of which, did anyone ever catch the episode of South Park that spoofed Dog the Bounty Hunter?

It was hilarious....Carpman was Dog the Hallway Monitor and Beth's boobs were so big, you couldn't see her head. Oh man...good times.

Dogg said...

Nicole,

I can't believe you compared me to K-Fed...or Fed-Ex...whatever he goes by now. And here I thought we were friends....tear.

You're on double notice now....:)

Now I gotta go soak in my own self-pitty.

RWA said...

"Are you truly proud of what the US Government has done in your name in Iraq? I fully understand that you love your Brother and Sericemen (as you should ...), but I would remind you that the German people loved their Nazi soldiers as people as well. Did that make what they did right?"

Why is it that every anti-war, anti-Bush person wants to compare Iraq to Nazi Germany? That's almost as bad as resorting to personal attacks and namecalling.

I am proud of what has been accomplished in Iraq. Hussein was a ruthless dictator. He is gone.

I have friends who have served multiple tours (at their own choosing) over there. They have shared first-hand accounts of people thanking them, giving them gifts and other good deeds. However, the press prefers to talk about the deaths and the isolated incidents of inappropriate behavior.

Those folks who have gone out of line will be dealt with - as they should.

It is not the fault of the American military that Iran is funding and supplying the insurgents. In the long run, Iraq will be a better place.

And, please, if you can't say anything a bit more appropriate for the discussion than comparing American government and troops to Nazi Germany, just keeps your outrageous opinions to yourself. My friends have risked their lives for this country, and I do not appreciate you comparing them in any way, shape or form to Nazis.

Nicole said...

it just ate my comment!!

Dogg, between you and me, I watch Dog too! but shhhh DON"T TELL ANYONE!!

My good friend and I are fascinated by them...we have pondered over drinks many times exactly how beth gets them to stand up like torpedoes!!! lol
and this should come as NO shocker, but Leland and Dwayne JR are kinda hot!! :)

speaking of big implants, I just made a thread on aging and implants...

Ellie said...

Yes. I agree that the Nazi Soldiers were totally different than American..for heaven's sake they were practicing genocide..that is part of the reason we are there..to stop genocide. You can't compare the two. Now if you want to compare Hilter and Saddam...go ahead.

Nicole said...

I don't think he was actually comparing US troops to nazi soldiers.
I think the comparison is that the soldiers were blindly supported because that is what you know.
If you grow up and are taught one thing all of your life, and have it drilled in your head, of course that is what you are going to know.
It is much like racism. A learned behaviour.

I personally don't believe that just because you do not support your troops being somewhere in action, doesn't mean you are not supportive of them on a whole.

and this comment It is not the fault of the American military that Iran is funding

It is not proven fact that the American government did supply Iraq and support Saddam in the eighties?

Ellie said...

Since I was only 7 at the time, I remember very little from that time Nic. I remember writing to President Regan begging him not to go to war. He actually wrote me back..or one of his staff did and he signed it. It was a pacify letter about the white house and not relevant to what I wrote. I know that the period of time in which you are speaking is 1980-1984. The Iran and Iraq war. The US supported Iraq b/c it served their interests better. What those interests were, I don't know. But during the course Iraq started using Chemical Weapons. I am not sure what happened from there.

Nicole said...

well sadly, history has proven that since the beginning of time, there have been wars fought for power, greed, religions, love, hate and all in between.

We just have to try and raise our kids to have respect and tolerance for others and to value human life.
That is the difference that people like you and I can make.

Nicole said...

Dogg, while you are soaking in your tears of self pity...just don't drown in those baggy K-fedish pants now...we'd miss ya!!!
:)

Aeneas the Younger said...

Thanks Nic for making my obvious point, well, MORE Obvious.

Supporting the troops no matter the cause is what the Germans did.

Please read what is written people.

As well, if the USA was so horrified by the Hussein's Gassing of the Kurds - then why did you do NOTHING when it actually happened, BACK IN 1988 !!! (when he was your Bitch ...)

You went to war in 2003 because your President claimed that Saddam Hussein had ties to 9/11, had ties to Al Qaeda, and possesed WMD's

ALL OF THIS WAS SUSPECTED TO BE FALSE.

ALL OF THIS WAS PROVEN TO BE FALSE.

Ellie - this is the problem we have with Americans in general: when you are presented with FACTS (such as above - please feel free to address them sometime, anytime), you ignore them and proceed to wave your 'effing flag in our faces !

ANSWER THE CHARGES PLEASE.

Your constant denial of reality is what gets you into trouble.

Ellie said...

Answer the charges. You act as if I am guilty of something. Come on now. I didn't disagree with everything that has been said. k. I was 7 when the entire thing with Regan, Rumsfield and Hussain began..so really I cannot comment more than what I did.

I still think that Hussain needed to be taken down for the list of crimes against humanity I gave earlier. Had I been part of the voting population back when..I would probably of wanted to take him out as well. I don't agree with being aligned with such evil.
I know 2 years later the US went into operation Desert Storm for the invasion of Kawait.
I think that Rumsfield is a big player in the United States relations with Iraq...I don't trust him either. I didn't want a war with Iraq, but I really think it was inevitable. I support us not pulling out b/c I would be scared of the devestation that would cause the Iraqui people with insurgents.
I don't want to comment on a time that I don't have all the facts. I can only comment on what I have faced before me now.

I still respect your opinion AE and I welcome anything you have to say. Your points are well taken. I just hope that you don't hate all americans b/c of our countries politicians. If you met me one day in passing, I don't think you would dislike me that much.

Aeneas the Younger said...

The "charges" were more for rwa ...

I don't suspect that I would dislike you at all; in fact, I think we would get on quite well.

You seem to be fun and possesed of a dirty little mind at times. A nice combo after-all.

I just worry that American play the "my country right or wrong" card a little too much.

Most of you appear to be too smart for that crap.

respectfully,

AtY

Nicole said...

Awhile back, AtY told me that when you frequent at a blog, after awhile it's like we are all at a coffee shop, tripping over each other and trying to over-talk each other.
If you keep coming back, there must be a reason.
I am sure that many of us would like each other alot, we wouldn't all agree on everything, but that is what makes the world go round and keeps life interesting!

I know for myself, I am very fond of many of the readers that come by my place...you get used to bantering back and forth and people grow on ya.
Plus it sure makes the time pass!!!
lol

Ellie, this has to be a record number of comments for you!!
who would have thunk it, a more political post drawing out a bunch of opinions!!! :)

Ellie said...

It tends to be that way on my political posts. I tend to stay away from them for the most part. But this one has been a doozy.

Woozie said...

As well, if the USA was so horrified by the Hussein's Gassing of the Kurds - then why did you do NOTHING when it actually happened, BACK IN 1988 !!!

Oh come on, this one is so simple. It's because Ronald Reagan doesn't/didn't care about anyone except rich white republicans, which Kurds are not.

Since this has turned into a thread about Dog the Bounty Hunter and Iraq, please allow me to say that I don't really like either of them. The picture of Bush Jr by Beth's desk and the little "group prayer" before runing someone's live over a dime bag thing just seeme really weird.

And Iraq, although Saddam Hussein was a genocidal tyrant who gassed his own people at least once, during Saddam's tenure as 'President', ALL Iraqi people could wake up, have breakfast, go to work, have lunchg, go home, have dinner, go to bed, and pray 5 times a day without constant fear of being torn to shreds by a bomb.

Saddam kept Iraq stable. Although now Iraqis can vote and be diddidents and say bad things about the gov't and all that good stuff, every morning there is a good possibility that they won't live to see the sunset. If I had to choose between living in pre-2003 Iraq and post-2003 Iraq, I'd take my chances with Saddam. Really, I would.

Nikky said...

Hi, Ive been lurking for awhile now, but I finally decided to post now. Ellie, if ya don't mind, I think I'll bookmark ya, it sure is interesting here. My husband just left yesterday to head back to Iraq after his leave. The last time we were together was last March, so it's been awhile. He was due to come home in April, but now that has been extended to August-ish... so I'm not happy about that. I also have a gay brother, we have several views in common, nice blog!!

Ellie said...

You are always welcome Nikky. I am glad you decided to comment. I wish your hubby much luck and love.
I will stop by your place and check you out!

Thanks woozie for your comments.

Aeneas the Younger said...

Woozie:

The Dog the BH thing just makes the USA looked very fucked-up - buy hey ! I feel the same way aabout "American Idol" and "Flavor of Love." Maybe I have no taste ...

As you know, I am against this Iraq War, although I concede the Saddam was a brutal Dicatator (did you know he moulded himself after Stalin and that he was an Atheist ?)and that I am not sad to see him hang from the rafters, the overall point is that the USA went to war in Iraq for three main contentions:

* That SH had a connection to AQ;

* That SH had something to with 9/11;

* That SH had WMD's.

All the rest of the justifications came-out POST-INVASION and only AFTER the first three justifications were proven, as most of the world suspected, FALSE.

Your point about chaos and the basic and haphazard patterns of life pre-invasion and post-invasion is valid though.

A better question is: Are the Iraqi people better-off enough now, to have justified all the lies Bush/Cheney used to sell the the Invasion in 2003?

I think not. It is a horrendous shitmess, that I predict will be capped by the USA pulling-out dramatically as they did from Saigon in 1975. Then it will get very ugly, and Bush will have the blood of history permanently tatooed on his hands.

RWA said...

"And Iraq, although Saddam Hussein was a genocidal tyrant who gassed his own people at least once, during Saddam's tenure as 'President', ALL Iraqi people could wake up, have breakfast, go to work, have lunchg, go home, have dinner, go to bed, and pray 5 times a day without constant fear of being torn to shreds by a bomb.

"Saddam kept Iraq stable. Although now Iraqis can vote and be diddidents and say bad things about the gov't and all that good stuff, every morning there is a good possibility that they won't live to see the sunset. If I had to choose between living in pre-2003 Iraq and post-2003 Iraq, I'd take my chances with Saddam. Really, I would."


You must be joking. Stable??!?!? Here is a man who SLAUGHTERED THOUSANDS for having religious beliefs different from his own. This country wasn't stable. The people were oppressed. It wasn't just "gassing" people once. This guy was a menace to his own countrymen and potentially the world.

I have friends who have served and are currently serving. They tell all sorts of stories of people who thank them, elderly people who get down on their knees and thank them. Don't tell me that the people of Iraq would prefer Saddam. The current problems will be fixed. There was no chance of improving life for the average Iraqi in any way, shape or form under Saddam's tyranny.

RWA said...

There is no "denial of reality," aeneas, but I'm glad to see you lowering yourself to profanity.

George W. Bush did not make up the WMD's. Furthermore, there are al Qaeda operatives working in Iraq. Were they involved in any way with 9/11? I personally have no idea.

But, Saddam Hussein was a murdering tyrant - and the world is a better place without him.

RWA said...

"I don't think he was actually comparing US troops to nazi soldiers. I think the comparison is that the soldiers were blindly supported because that is what you know. If you grow up and are taught one thing all of your life, and have it drilled in your head, of course that is what you are going to know. It is much like racism. A learned behaviour."

With all due respect, nicole, with his incessant bashing of the United States, I think the comparison was meant directly.

However, with your point, I do not consider support of the men and women who volunteer to put their lives on the line for us to be blind - or even something that could be remotely compared to racism.

Racism? Please.

I have several family members who spent time in the U.S. military. Even those who were drafted and did not volunteer served proudly and put their lives on the line. Don't try to tell me that sacrifice and effort deserves no support.

I have friends now who have served and are serving overseas. Don't tell me that because they chose to do that means that I shouldn't support them.

If an unquestioned support of the men and women who volunteer for the United States military is racism, then I guess you can call me a racist. I've been called much worse. Supporting the individuals does not mean that a person supports the various things that the members of the military collectively are sent to do.

Hypersonic said...

ellie, can you email me.

Nicole said...

Sorry rwa, but I don't agree. I do not for a minute believe that AtY compared your troops to Hitler's regime. If you also need to twist my words and compare supporting your troops to racism, feel free.
I used racism as an example as it is a learned behaviour, which is a proven fact. People are taught to hate. Just as there are people that are taught to believe that their country is in the right, regardless of it's actions. It seems that their are American people that feel if you do not 100% support the US then you are not patriotic, and are anti-american.
Well, let me tell you that there are various acts thru history in Canada that I am not proud of. That doesn't mean that I am not a proud Canadian, it means that I can think for myself and realize what I believe is right and wrong. I will not blindly deny when my country's leaders have made wrong choices. My current leader is a donkey, and I can accept that.

I have never once said that if you are supporting the men and women who have chosen careers in the military as blind choice. But by supporting EVERY action and choice that your government makes, as right, because after all it is America, is being totally blind and oblivious to reality.
Nor is supporting your troops racist. I am alittle disgusted that you have gotten all huffy over this and tried to bait me into more then I have said because you are angry over comments.
Well, in alot of cases, the truth hurts. Your country has done many things and has to be accountable for it. Even Ellie has agreed that there have been bad choices made, and alot of the choices have been done out of greed.

I have extended family in the Canadian military. I did not agree with some of our involvements over the last couple of years. That does NOT for one moment mean that I am against my troops, nor non-supportive of them. I am allowed to disagree with choices that my county makes, and still be supportive of the men and women that are heroes.

If you want to point out that AtY has been rude with his usage of profanity, what about how you have talked on here. It is Ellie's blog, and you have flat out told people not to come back here with their comments because you are offended by them, or do not agree with them/ The thing is, hurtful or not, blunt or not, Ellie has asked for opinions. opinions would include all, if I am not mistaken.
I am sure that Ellie has not wanted to create a circkle jerk of discussions where everyone had to be in agreement of what Ellie has said. That definitely does not make for honest debate.
It did not say, "what is your opinion of America, but only if it is all rosey and in agreement".

I would never judge American people by the government. I choose to judge people on how they treat me. Like I first stated, anytime I have encountered Americans, they have been delightful.

Many people in your counrty have a major hate on for Cuba...but I believe that Cuba is a top destination of vacations for many an American. How many of you are against Castro...but how many of you have found the people of the counrty to be pleasant and gracious for the most part?

Nicole said...

oh yeah, Wooz and AtY, I never said that Dog was a good show, or that I watch it weekly, I have said that I have watched it,as I find them fascinating...I mean...who do you know that is like a "regular" person that is like them?

That chest of hers and the get ups are something else, and I agree with the little prayer sessions...it's like a train wreck...and I am guilty of pulling over and gawking!!!!

Ellie said...

i'll publish it, but I am out of that debate!

Nicole said...

well that's nice that you published it..you published what rwa had to say to me, so I guess that would make for fair debate now wouldn't it??? :)

Ellie said...

I was speaking of the chest and get ups....You are still talking about dogg the bounty hunter right?

As far as you and RWA....I am outta that one too. I your defense though...I understand what you were saying and don't feel like you were bringing up racism.

Ellie said...

Cuba...that's another story. I heard on the radio today that Castro has had 3 failed intestinal operations and he is on deaths door. It will be interesting how that will play out. Pre Castro, Cuba was a really beautiful place...as so I have seen in documentarys

Woozie said...

rwa: Here is a man who SLAUGHTERED THOUSANDS for having religious beliefs different from his own. This country wasn't stable. The people were oppressed. It wasn't just "gassing" people once. This guy was a menace to his own countrymen and potentially the world.

Okay. Now, I acknowledge that he slaughtered thousands. However, when he did slaughter the people he did, it wasn't on a daily basis like it is now. I'm sure this is a blunt over exaggeration of the facts, but with Saddam it was a tossup as to whether or not you were going to die that day, but the odds were in your favor.

Whereas now with the instability, it's still a tossup but the odds are very much against you, considering that civilian death estimates in Iraq since the 2003 invasion range from 53,000 to 150,000. And bear in mind that death toll is over span of 4 years, not 30.

Also, I said "at least once" because I don't know how much it happened; I know for a fact that it happened at least once. I'm not going to say someone did something they didn't do, even if that person is Saddam Hussein.

I have friends who have served and are currently serving. They tell all sorts of stories of people who thank them, elderly people who get down on their knees and thank them.

Call them, email them, whatever. Ask your friends, who was there more of during their tour of duty? People who seemed happy with the U.S. presence, or those who were dissatisfied with it (not necessarily terrorists)?

Don't tell me that the people of Iraq would prefer Saddam.

I never said that. I said I would take my chances under Saddam. Don't put words in people's mouths; mine or millions of people's.

The current problems will be fixed.

It's taking an awfully long time, running on 4 years now.

There was no chance of improving life for the average Iraqi in any way, shape or form under Saddam's tyranny.

I never said there was a chance of improvement for Iraqis under Saddam, because there wasn't. But what you have to understand is that Saddam's favorite hobby was nut strolling down the streets of Baghdad with an AK-47 shooting children in the head. Yes he did kill his own people on numerous occasions

Nicole said...

yep, still talking about Dog and Beth.

I don't blame you for playing the staying out of it card...much like Switzerland...heheeh..and most people like the Swiss...!!!! :)

been a crazy, busy day over here!!! But getting LOTS of work done!!!

Ellie said...

woozie, I suggest that you visit some of the sites I quoted earlier to learn a bit more about Saddam. I feel very strongly that if you were there you wouldn't last long. You are a bright young man with an outspoken voice especially regarding political issues..you surely would be persecuted.

Aeneas the Younger said...

rwa:

Are you really this obtuse, or are you just pretending ... ?

Just a question.

rwa wrote: "You must be joking. Stable??!?!? Here is a man who SLAUGHTERED THOUSANDS for having religious beliefs different from his own.

* Saddam Hussein was a known Atheist. He only took up the appearance of Islamist faith once the US invaded Iraq in 2003. I have been studying Foreign Affairs and Foreign Leaders for 25 years. These are facts.

"This guy was a menace to his own countrymen and potentially the world."

* Where is your proof for this ? The one time he invaded another Nation (Kuwait, he was beaten back easily by a Colation of Allies (Canada included.) He had no capability for sustained warmaking after 1992-93.

rwa wrote: "I have friends who have served and are currently serving. They tell all sorts of stories of people who thank them, elderly people who get down on their knees and thank them. Don't tell me that the people of Iraq would prefer Saddam."

* Is this small sample representative of ANYTHING? Where is your clear and sustained proof for this statement?

rwa wrote: "The current problems will be fixed. There was no chance of improving life for the average Iraqi in any way, shape or form under Saddam's tyranny."

* But that is NOT the rationale for Bush's War on Iraq. Bush's war was based on Iraq having WMDs, a clear connection to 9/11 and a known and clear and direct association with Al Qeada. ALL OF WHICH HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE FALSE NOT JUST BY ME, BUT BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT'S 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT !

Do you have any proof for any of your wildely false assertions, or do you Drink Purple Kool-Aid with your CRACKERS ?

Wishing will NOT make it so, Son. Try reading a Newspaper, or even reading the 9/11 Commission Report on-line at:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/

Try reading the facts before you wrap yourself in the flag ...

Ellie said...

I think we have reached a point where no side is in a winnable debate.

Aeneas the Younger said...

With all due respect, I think you are wrong.

The numbers don't lie Ellie - not just here, but in US Polls on the issue of that Sad War.

You are in the minority.

Ellie said...

all I am saying...both sides thinks they are right. As far as this thread is concerned. I think we could go on forever...

I appreciate everyones comments though. Very though provoking. Nic brought up some very important issues of the United States relations with Iraq in the 80's. I have been reading up on that. As I said I was only 7 at the time..so I don't know much.

I think I have made it clear where I stand on the issues. I have serious problems with our president and the way things have been handled. But I think the world is a better place without Saddam and I put my full support behind our troops and wish them nothing but a peaceful ending to their mission and their safe return home.

Aeneas the Younger said...

On that last sentence, we can all agree ...

Ellie said...

Sweeeeeet!